Ozymandias,



From Everyone's Favorite On-Line Source - Wikipedia

In other words, the Universe had a beginning. All kinds of top scientists all over the world hold to the idea that the universe came into existence at some time in the finite past. For the most part, this is an uncontroversial view. Given that, it's unlikely that it came into being from non-being, as this is a logical contradiction. Something doesn't come from nothing.

Regarding why it must be a creator god, what else would you call the creator? You're welcome to call it Ralph, Spot, or whatever you'd like, but I fail to understand why you would object to the term God. Care to shed some light?

It's unlikely that the creator is unintelligent. It's also unlikely that this creator has no power. I think an intelligent being with incredible power might qualify as a God-type being. Don't you?

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

That's false. You're misreading what the Big Bang Theory says. As your quote shows, the BBT says the universe has been expanding for a finite period of time. However, it doesn't say the universe "began" at that point, just that it started expanding at some point. Expansion != beginning. The BBT doesn't explain when or how the energy and matter that started expanding came into existence. It may have always existed for all science can tell us so far.


It's a common misconception.



We don't know there was ever a state of nothing. Something may have always existed.

We also don't know that something can never come from nothing. The origin of the universe is a unique circumstance where our currently known science does not fit.

But if you hold that something can't come from nothing and also that there was a time there was nothing, then where did this creator come from?



"God" implies omnipotence. Maybe the universe was created by a sub-omnipotent being. If our universe was created by a creator in a lab, is that creator then a god?



That's relative. By that measure, to my dog, I would qualify as a god.

Ozymandias,

Are you saying that there wasn’t a time when time, matter, energy, and space came into existence and that we can’t trace that back to a point, beyond which our theories utterly breakdown? Really?

Hmmmm…that’s the common misconception of a lot of scientists I guess. I don’t know what to tell you on that one.

By the way, the key word within BBT isn’t “began”, it’s “finite”. That’s the word that matters, and the word that tells you its existence hasn’t been eternal.


Based upon the available evidence, we know with a high degree of probability that something doesn’t come from nothing. True, we may not know in an absolutely certain sense, but that doesn’t mean we don’t know. I don’t know a lot of things for certain in an absolute sense, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t true. And based on the available evidence, we don’t have good reason to affirm or believe that the universe or anything else has come into being from nothing. The fact that it’s a logical contradiction is one hint.



I’ll tell you what. If you look around at all that is in existence and take into account its scope and marvelous complexity, and after all that, are still comfortable calling anything or anyone would could accomplish that task sub-omnipotent, then I guess I’ll have to agree that I’d be comfortable calling even someone sub-omnipotent like the one that created this universe and everything that ever came into existence, God.


I have to assume you’re joking because if you’re not, this is just silly. You know that I’m referring to the kind of intelligence and power that is capable of creating the universe and everything in it. I’m just gonna take a wild guess and say that wouldn’t qualify as your dog. But what do I know, right?

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

I don't know if there was, and science doesn't know, is what I'm saying. The BBT doesn't tell us there was.



No legitimate scientists would say that's an accepted interpretation. If you insist you're right, please show some credible source that agrees with you. Nothing on the wikipedia page does.

To be clear, I mean science has not told us how or when the energy that began expanding at the Big Bang came into existence. Scientists will often say loosely that the "universe began with the Big Bang" but if you ask them to clarify they'll say they don't know how whatever existed at the Big Bang came to be there nor when (if time can even apply to "before" the Big Bang). In other words, the BBT doesn't say at one point there was nothing at all and then there was something and it began expanding. The BBT only goes back as far as when there was already something there to expand. The Big Bang is not the creation of the initial energy; it is the beginning expansion of that energy into space-time. We don't know how to yet describe the universe at time zero. We can only look back as far as the Planck epoch, which is already after the expansion started.

There are various speculations in science about the origin of the Big Bang, but nothing close to conclusive yet and maybe never.



No, it tells you the expansion is finite.



We don't know the laws of nature in the "pre-Big Bang" universe. Unknown laws apply there.



You mean without a god, don't you? Because you apparently believe a god created the universe out of nothing.



Reality is not beholden to our rules of logic. Relativity and QM are not so "logical," for example.

And again, apparently you believe a god can defy that logical contradiction by creating something out of nothing.



I am comfortable with that. It's relative. For example, what we know now about the natural world today would appear godly compared to what we knew 3000 years ago.

Ozymandias wrote:
This is completely consistent with what I learned during a truly fascinating series of lectures on cosmology some years ago. It's also consistent with what I know from my friends in the deep-space astronomy business right now.

Notice the careful language: this is what we know; this is what we don't know.

To me, this kind of careful language distinguishes science from religion.

It is not impossible that what happened before the Big Bang involved a force one could call "God"--but we don't know now and may never know.

I would like to offer this as the unofficial Taoist response to the Atheist Bus campaign ...

http://www.b3tards.com/u/d81a83cf6d5a93144ba7/bus_stop_bigger.jpg

ps: It may well be Photoshopped, but the sentiment holds true.

Thanks rainbird. Best laugh of the day.

Some Christian groups are replying with their own ads.

Let there be adverts: Christians hit back at the atheist bus | The Guardian

You know, the Real winner in all of this is London's public transportation system.

If there is a God who pays attention to such things, She's laughing Her omnipotent Hind End off.

Probably

That reminds me of the scene in Bruce Almighty where he asks God how many fingers he is holding up and the says "seven".

That's gotta be an expensive way to debate. Somebody tell those Christians about DH.

The bus ad wars have landed in Canada and in Seattle (with a more nuanced approach). And the old standby medium of billboards has a new challenger in Texas.

If there was an all powerful god who wanted to be praised, followed and whatever I am sure it would have done a better job of revealing itself to us.